Birna Gustafsson: Welcome back to Beyond the Bedroom and today I have sexologist Natasha Miller with me. Hi! Natassia Miller: Hi BG: I’m so happy to have you on. I had the pleasure of going to one of your workshops, which was incredible. And so when we say sexologist, can you tell people a little bit more about what that entails and what you do?

NM: Yes, of course. So sexologist is a term that encompasses sex researchers, therapists, coaches, educators. And so for me specifically, I'm an educator and a coach.

BG: Okay, educator and a coach. And you work with people one-on-one, you work in groups.

NM: I work with people one on one. work with people in groups. I do it all. have the online courses that educate. I educate on social media.

BG: She can do it all! One of the things that I actually knew about you before we even met is you're the creator of the card deck, Wonderlust. It's like, for people who don't, haven't seen this, I don't know how you have missed it, cause I've definitely posted about it before. It's a really cool card deck because it's not like a traditional couples game. I think like you flip it kind of on its head and when you draw a card, it's like you're asking your partner the question, which is so...different and unique and cool and I just I love that perspective shift.

NM: Yeah, it takes the pressure off of your back to ask the question. And if you don't like the question or the question doesn't land the way that you expected it to, can just place the, can blame it on the card and place it to the side and move on to the next thing. And I think that allows the conversation that can be awkward and can be intimidating to be a lot more approachable. And that was the goal of creating this card deck for couples.

BG: I think that's really cool because a lot of the time people are always told like you have to communicate, you have to communicate and it's like there's two things missing there. think one is that a lot of people genuinely don't know how to start the conversation. They don't know how what they need the language. And another thing is like people don't always have the guts to do that. It's like super vulnerable. I feel like we get a little jaded. We're like talking about sex so much that it becomes almost second nature. And it's easy to forget. Like for me, it's like, yeah, we'll just ask your partner if they want to do anal. And I'm like, OK, well, maybe that's very intimidating and vulnerable. my gosh. Fear of rejection, fear of like not. Yeah, that too. I mean, there's a lot at stake sometimes for people, especially if it's like a more kinky fantasy. They're like, what if they never look at me the same way? Exactly. I like that a lot.

So, what went into creating that deck? Like what was it just like born out of like a I need help asking questions myself or it was like the same people asking the same questions? Like what happened?

NM: So what happened was I used to work in finance and when I decided to leave finance and work with something that gave me a lot of meaning in my life, I actually started another wellness company that launched right before COVID hit. And because of that didn't work out. Long story short, when I left, when we closed down that company, I decided what did I want to do next? And reflecting on that, I've always been that friend that talks about sex very easily. When I used to work in finance and I would you know, talk to my colleagues about it. And it was just something that felt very natural. And I realized that people don't feel as comfortable talking about it the way that I do. And the sexual wellness industry over the last seven years or so has gone through this like awesome rebranding, right? Making everything more approachable in general. And so I reflected on what are the you know, what's a product that I can bring into the world that would truly make a difference? And we did a study with over 500 couples and found that what was truly preventing them from building a better sex life, trying new things, was being able to communicate about it. And so I thought, okay, let's create a card deck that's going to have a variety of prompts that are going to cover your relationship and your sex life and exploring your desires and, also with some action prompts that are based on relationship therapy and how can you strengthen your communication and learn new things about your partner in a way that again, like I mentioned, feels approachable. Right. So that was the seed idea for the card deck. And then I wanted to make something that was really beautiful and experiential. And so then I partnered with a Brazilian friend of mine who's an artist and like there is erotic artwork in each of the cards. It's something beautiful that you can, you know, decorate your bedside table with.

BG: I love the little drawings on the cards because it adds an element of like, like you said, it could be like decor. Yeah. But also adds this erotic element. That's really cool. And I love that. I feel like we could benefit in general from more things being a little bit more erotic. I don't know if you remember, but when I was young, I remember like in the library or in the grocery store, there was like romance books that had these covers that were just like they weren’t it's overtly sexual, but there was something about it, like the way he was touching her neck or something that was just so erotic. And I was like, this is so glamorous and beautiful. And it's something that I think because we talk so much about erotic material that we forgot that like the erotic can be very beautiful and almost glamorous and chic. like, I love like your whole vibe online, this type of play…

NM: Yeah.

BG: …it doesn't have to look a certain way. It doesn't have to be like black and red and like, you know, flashing the online. Like it can also be very chic and very like, I think it makes it more accessible to people also that don't want like the flashing light of like, we're doing something sexy right now, you know?

NM: Yeah, absolutely. And like no shame on that. think there's just a variety of, you know, interests and what attracts people. And so I always kid around that for me, I feel like my, like what I'm attracting are, you know, more vanilla couples who are interested in trying new things and want to spice things up. But the flashy stuff feels very out there for them.

BG: So you work a lot with straight couples compared to some of the guests I have on. And I teach a lot about queer theory and queer literacy. But when I say you work with straight couples, you do something very interesting that's very similar to what I do, which is like you actually, even though you're working with heterosexual or straight people, you do a lot of subverting those roles and those gender roles. And I think that that's an important distinction to make because there's a lot of people that may look down almost on terms like vanilla or cis het, stuff like that, because we've gotten so far in this conversation where it's like- but I'm like, those people also need help communicating and they also need a lot of like help exploring and they're having great sex and they're capable of having great sex and like, you know what I mean? So I think it's so cool that like we kind of do the same thing with different groups of people. everybody can benefit from these, you know, scripts being tossed out a little.

NM: Yeah, Dr. Emily Nagoski, she launched her second book, Coming Together, and I was at the launch. Yeah. And she mentioned that she dedicated a whole chapter. mean, I read the book, she dedicated a whole chapter to cis straight couples because she's like, the straights are in trouble. BG: Are the Straights OK?
NM: exactly. And so while I think it is very important for you to be inclusive and bring in that queer literacy and education, there is the majority of the population that still identifies as his hat and is struggling in these relationships. And I'm like, okay, that's my bread and butter.

BG: I always joke that when I teach queer literacy and queer literacy courses and stuff like that, the people that would benefit the most from being there are not the people who come. If you're walking in and you're here, you've already done a lot of work in this and I can see and I can tell. And it was similar to when I was in Iceland and I taught a lot of pleasure workshops.

Every single time I taught like a vulva pleasure class or like an oral sex class like going down on a vulva like so many people would come either like solo women being like I just want to explain what I want more or it would be like lesbians or it would be couples and the guy would be like really scared to be there like why are the men not showing up like y'all are fucking perfect at eating pussy I don't think so like get in here you know what I mean so it's so funny that It's hard sometimes to get them to come into the door. And a lot of the time I'm like, this class is meant for you. Like, why are you afraid?

NM: yeah, such a masculine thing.

And then I found out through talking to a lot of them that they were really afraid of admitting that they needed help with it. They were really afraid of. Yeah, and they were really afraid of like, well, like I don't want to, I don't want to seem like a creep either. And I was like, oh, that's interesting.

NM: I can see that. Yeah. And I think it's understandable. men are brought up to know all the answers, right, and to provide for the family and to like, take care. So admitting that they don't know and that they need help. I mean, a simple, silly example is asking for directions, like men are known for never stopping and asking for directions. So yeah, it makes sense that now when you're talking about something as sensitive as your sex life, which we talk about virility and like the penis and you know, the guy should own it and you know, and then he needs to ask for help. Of course it's going to be really hard, right? Yeah.

BG: And I think what you said there, like being the provider, a lot of the time when I'm working with couples or just talking to couples and they come to me and they tell me like, yeah, we're having some sort of miscommunication. And a lot of the time it's like, she's not as satisfied as she wants to be. And he feels like he is not providing the pleasure. And I always thought that was so interesting because we do, know, societally there is a perception of men being the providers, except for when it comes to providing

It's like we don't want to talk about the fact that we're not providing pleasure because like that means we're ultimately failing at like what we're inherently supposed to be doing. So I think it's such a sensitive conversation to have and have you noticed there like being a lot of pushback on this or have you noticed this idea come up a lot in your work?

NM: Well, I think with women, because we've been conditioned to prioritize men's pleasure, we don't even allow ourselves to explore our bodies and understand what it is that we want or even question if we're enjoying the sex that we're having. For a lot of women, it can just be like, well, this is what it is. This is what sex is. And I may not really love it, but like, I don't see an alternative. Right? Right. I have clients who believe that they have never that they don't have a sexual fantasy. Or when you ask them what's the best sexual experience that they've ever had, nothing comes up. And so it's something that we don't talk about enough. But one thing that I tell people is a sexual fantasy can be as simple as you having eight hours of sleep and your husband coming up behind you and giving you a kiss in the neck and initiating in a very soft and caring manner, right? And that's okay. It's just like what makes your imagination

feel juicy, like when you're imagining a sexual encounter, right? it doesn't need to be like whips and chains and all that kind of stuff. And it makes me really sad to hear when somebody can't recall a great sexual experience and they've been married for 30 years, right? But it again comes down to us growing up with guilt and shame. And even though you might not actively be thinking about feeling shame around your sex life, you'll realize that you're not even giving yourself the opportunity to explore. And so then when that applies to men, the men don't know any better either. Like we're not taught the sex education. And so a lot of the work that I do is just teaching about basic sexual desire and arousal and how that happens, right? Which for us is basic, but for people it's like, how come I wasn't taught this before? This would have saved me so much stress in my marriage. So the guy, tends to have spontaneous desire, he gets an erection pretty quickly, and the woman's there like, my God, this is a lot, what do I do with this? And for him, even though she might consistently say no, or may not seem as engaged during sex, they kind of just think that that's how it's supposed to be. Because I don't think for the most part, they're not like ill intentioned. I think it's just truly a lack of education.

BG: like a expectation also,

NM: There is entitlement as well.

BG: So it's like, if you saw sex depicted in one way for the majority of the times you've seen sex depicted, of course you're gonna internalize those messages, you know? And I think it's a very brave thing when men can question those things. And I think it's very brave when men can say, wait, okay, I've been taught that basically, like when I get hard, I have to do something about that if my partner's there.

And like if we're having sex, like she's got to come before I do, because when I come, it's over. And it's like, hold on, who taught me that? Like, is that something that actually is an inherent biological fact? Like, maybe not, you know, it's something that I've been conditioned to believe. And I think it's really cool when, you know, men can question those things and they can kind of say, OK, wait, how is that serving me? How is that serving my sex life? How is that serving my partner?

Are there things that we can try and do differently? So when we're doing this work, I think a lot of men feel very attacked at first. I'm like, listen, I'm trying to make it better for you. But it is very scary. think if you've been taught or have believed that sex is one way for your whole life, like making the familiar feel strange is very scary to people.

What do you say to people that might want to do this work and might want to start exploring and start opening up but they're really scared of questioning like who am I sexually if this is not true?

NM: I think there's a lot of baby steps to start taking. One of them is asking yourself, you know, what are the beliefs that you have and which ones serve you and which ones don't and how can you start unlearning those beliefs? Right. I mean, make the effort to learn the education, which is just like objective and then reflect on like, what are your own subjective beliefs on that and how that impacts the information that you're taking in.

I feel like this is such a lifelong process. if you've, and this is something that I tell clients as well, like you're here, you probably want to solve this ASAP, but this has taken years for it to get to where it's gotten, right? And you're not going to unlearn this in a couple of months, right? It's going to take probably a year or more if you're really being consistent about the work.

long time for you to truly feel like you may feel the shift happen in a shorter period of time. But when you're like working one on one with a coach or a therapist, you're going to have that accountability. But then once you stop working with them and you need to kind of continue on with your life, like it really does require a lot of self discipline for you to continue practicing it. Right. That's something that I'm also, you know, passionate about, that I think is a more approachable way for you to create the change in your sex life is like approach your sex life the way that you would with any other goal that you set for your career, for your nutrition, for your sleep quality, you know, like what are specific measurable, you know, realistic and time bound goals. A great example that can feel a bit, you know, shocking for people, anal sex, right? Like, Okay, I want to incorporate anal sex in my life. What's the first step that you want to take? Probably get Dr. Evan Goldstein's book, Butt Seriously, right? Like read it. You're going to read X amount of pages per day until you finish that book. I know this sounds really simple, but like these are the smart goals that are going to help you create that change. And then you're going to discover that in the book, there are certain tools for you to do the exercise. And there's an exercise that takes six weeks for you to prepare your anus in order to start receiving, right? And so what are the tools that you need to purchase? How much time a day do you need to dedicate to those exercises? What are the then additional toys that you incorporate moving forward once you feel ready? How, you know, yeah, the budgeted amount of time that you're going to spend with your partner to start trying that, which I think is always really important when you try something new with your partner. It's always best if you schedule it instead of assuming that it's just going to happen spontaneously because when you do it spontaneously, you're always going to revert to doing the same things that you always do. Yeah. And when you want to try something new, you can plan for it. You can build that expectation, the anticipation and you know, so yeah.

BG: I like the idea of also setting goals for your sex life. Like the workshop that I attended that you hosted, I think it was really surprising to people to hear you speak about these goals in such a specific way, because I think people don't prioritize their sex life the way that they prioritize other things in their life. Like if you want to run a marathon, like there's entire sections on like...training apps and trainers you can get and like all this stuff. Like you're not gonna just wake up one day and be able to run 20 something miles. you know, and it's the same with our sex life. Like if you're subverting all of these norms, if you're trying new things, if you're like taking on new experiences, like, yeah, you could, you know, probably like throw yourself into it, but is that the best way to do it? Probably not, you know? And so a lot of people were... like a little surprised when you were talking about like the SMART goals because they were like, like I do this at work. And I'm like, yeah, like because they work.

NM: Yeah, and you're going to be able to measure the progress, right? Like, it's not just going to be the subjective thing. I want to feel more connected to my partner by the end of 2025. Great. What are you going to do to get there? What are the specific steps, you know?

BG: think it's hard for people to hold themselves accountable in their sex life too. And that's something that once you start realizing, like, I'm in control of how much I push myself forward, it's not going to just like come to me, especially like if you are in a partnership where there's mismatched libidos, there are communication issues, like if you're just not doing anything, but you're or if you're doing a lot of the work on your own, but you're not communicating any of that to your partner.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:45.506) That's also not really helping the situation. Like you're doing a lot for yourself, but like, it's not actually creating any measurable... So it's hard for people to hold themselves accountable, but it's important.

NM: It's so important because it's so much cheaper for you to do that than go through a breakup or a divorce. Yeah. It really is.

BG: Yes. Yeah, we're both married. Like, you know, I always tell myself, like, I can either work towards changing it, accept it and just be unhappy or leave. Like, that's it. Those are my only options. And I can't accept it and it'll go away. Like, that's not one of my options, you know? And people think that because it's your sex life, it'll just kind of like, it'll go away or like it's uncomfortable to think about. So I just, you know, but a lot of the time I feel like that makes it way worse, Like if they're not addressing it.

NM: Yeah, and I think there's something important. We go through phases in life where sex is just not a priority and that's totally OK. Emily Nagoski mentions that there are three characteristics that couples with lasting sexual connection have. One of them is that when sex is not a priority, they talk about how it's going to be placed on the back burner and we're going to circle back and make an effort to reconnect after this phase passes. And that's like my number one advice when, especially when I get moms who have newborns and they're like, yeah, what do I do? Where's my libido? And I'm like, first of all, absolutely normal what you're going through. Second of all, sit down with your husband or your partner and talk about how, listen, this is exactly how I'm feeling. I can go through this education as well for men to understand like where you're coming from. But once this phase passes, once I have some more energy and desire, we'll reconnect, right?

BG: I loved the, the Emily Nagowski book. I was so excited to be able to hear her speak about it at the conference I was at a couple months ago. And it was so funny that one of the things she was saying, was like a little call and response with the audience, the audience, by the way, being mostly sex educators and clinicians. And she's like, so what are some other things that kind of pause sex in your relationships or lead to resentment? And like four people went, the dishes.

She was like, I cannot tell you how many times the fricking dishes come up. But it's one of those things where people don't realize a lot of the time that their sex life is being affected by everything else. And then their sex life also can bleed into everything else. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. For us, it seems so natural that like, you know, of course the stuff that we talk about on the daily is going to creep into our sex life. But a lot of people see it as like this thing that's to the side. How can people put that partition down and realize like, okay, the issues in our relationship, the resentment I have because you're not picking up your stuff around the house, that's contributing to the fact that I don't wanna have sex with you. Like, why would I wanna have sex with someone who's like creating all this extra work for me around the house?

Right.

NM: I mean, that's part of the work that I do with clients is taking a whole 360 degree look at what your relationship is like. What is the mental load? is it divided between you and your partner? How can you, and in generally speaking, there is a greater mental load on the woman. so, okay, great. Let's make a spreadsheet of all of the to-dos that happen. Who's responsible for what, like, can you delegate anything more to your partner so that it becomes more equal? If not, can you hire a virtual assistant for as little as $10 an hour on Upwork.com to start delegating anything that can be done online, booking medical appointments, trips, that kind of stuff, which does end up taking a lot of space, right? Purchasing the present for your kids, friends, birthday party, right?

Once that's done, if there's still a lot, like what more can you say no to, right? Because we want to do everything today, but you can't.

BG: And you shouldn't be responsible for everything. I think practicing saying no and practicing where does the no, where do you feel that in your body? Because if you're constantly being like, I don't want to do this and you're ignoring that and you're doing it anyway, that's also going to show up in your sex life.

NM: Yeah, absolutely. a big problem is that generally we associate that the man who provides financially when he comes home, he shouldn't need to contribute as much. But the problem is that the woman's time is infinite, whereas the man's time is seen as finite. And so he'll come home from work and he'll have all of these extra hours where he can like do other hobbies or improve himself, you know, and relax. Whereas for the woman, she'll, it never ends, right? Like she'll be doing the dishes and then she'll be washing clothes and then she'll put the kids. Exactly. And so that's why it's so important for you to find ways to make this more equal. And they've also shown that the women who end up making more financially than men still end up doing more work at home.

BG: In Iceland, we had this whole movement, it's called Þriðjavaktinn, third shift, because you might be working all day and you might come home and you might be a mom, but your third shift is also all of the emotional labor you're doing and all of the domestic work in the house. And Iceland is considered like a very, like a country with high gender parity. And I always laugh when I say that, because I'm like, we're still fighting for a lot of rights, you know what mean? Like we're still fighting all of the same stuff, but we can. It's safer for us to fight about it and it's safer for us to talk about it. it's, you know, just for couples who acknowledge like, I'm not trying to do something bad. It's just, this is what's happened. And like, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, but ultimately it's up to us to fix it and just kind of move forward. And like the man has to take more responsibility with things. Those types of things also make you… It shows that like you respect your partner. Yeah, you respect her as a human being and as a woman You respect how hard she's worked for all of this and now it's your turn to share that responsibility That's hot like I'm sorry, but like that's baseline like that's sexy. That is so it's like, you know that I think should be celebrated as masculinity, you know being like alright like I Can see you're struggling and like we need to work on this together and I need to step

Yeah, absolutely.

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BG: So I have a couple of listener questions. Okay. I saved specifically because I was like, she's gonna have a great answer for these. My long-term partner and I really need the spark to come back into our lives. We love being together, hanging out, having fun, but don't feel the need for sex anymore. We're starting to feel more like two friends living together than two people in a romantic relationship. It feels awkward to initiate at this point, so how do we get our spark back?

NM: Okay, the first thing I always recommend is do new activities together. Yeah. Like number one thing, they've done a study that shows couples who do something new together are 36 times more likely to have sex that day. Which is a lot of times…

BG: It doesn't even have to be like bungee jumping. can be like we've never gone for a run together.

NM: I always recommend like practicing a sport, going to an art class. I remember one time we went to Happy Medium, which is a casual arts cafe here in New York City, and we were doing sketching. There was a nude model and I had no clue that my husband knew how to sketch so well. Neither did he actually. Like he was fabulous and I actually like painted when I was younger and it was like atrocious.

But it was really cool to see him in that new light, right? And like do a new activity together. So you can be wine tasting, all these different things that just try to schedule that into, I would say like once every two weeks, ideally, you're going to be doing that together to bring in that new energy.

BG: Like new relationship energy really is you're learning new things about each other everything becomes more exciting if you feel even if you've been together for like 20 years There's gonna be more things to learn because people evolve and change with time right so check in also on like Things that you used to enjoy together that you don't do anymore even you know like how has that changed like you know I think it's always so fun Especially for like older couples when I see them doing like they're like taking a pottery class together

They're like, yeah, we're retired and we're just trying new things. And I'm like, I bet you're having incredible sex still.

NM: yeah, absolutely. I also hear from like post-menopausal women how much stronger their orgasms are and how much more desire they feel once that passes, you know? So that's, I think, really exciting to look forward to.

BG: So the roommate situation, I think it's really common. And I love that advice, like try doing new things non-sexual together. Because again, it'll bleed into your sex life.

Yeah, so doing that, another advice linked to the same element is schedule two surprise dates. One, all you will know is the actual date itself when it's gonna happen. And then you're gonna have one partner who's gonna be responsible for organizing one date, another partner responsible for the other one. Just let them know like what they should wear, you know? And that's it. And I think that surprise is just such a nice way for you to take care and feel that you're being taken care of and also trying new things. Because you're going to be forced to think about something that goes beyond dinner and a movie. Yeah. Right?

BG: I can remember like every single surprise date my husband has taken me on. Like, yeah, it's so funny. He's like, you should wear this because we're going to go do something later. And I'm like, what could it be? Like I all of a sudden it feels like we're dating again. So I love that. Absolutely. Even if it was just like we're getting ice cream. But I was like, I didn't I couldn't have guessed that, you know, it was like a specific like Italian gelato shop that had just opened. And he was like, oh, yeah, like, I know you like getting ice cream, I'm going to do something extra special about it. It's like stuff like that where it's like, it doesn't have to be super expensive or fancy. It's just the fact that it's like, you remembered I brought that up, you That shows that you care and it's nice.

BG: Yeah, absolutely. The other thing I would say is when it comes to actual erotic, you know, energy in bed, go to your local sex shop, like purchase a variety of, you know, different bondage items and like whips and feathers and whatnot. A pinwheel, blindfold each other and spend the time just kind of grazing these different tools on each other's bodies and understand like what feels good, you know, what doesn't feel as good, but like, what are you going to start incorporating more into your sex life? think just like these are really small elements of excitement and you go in with like an exploratory mindset where you're okay if it doesn't work out, right? You're just like, we're testing.

We're going to try something new together because that's what sex should be, right? Like it's adult play. And so I think approaching that by trying new things in bed with the idea that it's totally okay to fail. It's just for fun, I think is another great way. And there's a ton of different somatic exercises that you can do together that are not sexual and like genetically focused in nature but that allow you to touch each other and that arouse the five senses in the moment. And you're going to start looking at your partner a little bit differently. And there's just like so many different exercises on this.

BG: Stuff like Sensate Focus and things like that. Where it's like you can do it in steps. It doesn't have to be all at once.

NM: exactly exactly so I would just recommend start looking at you know these different possibilities and understand that it's a process too right like you're not gonna recover that spark overnight

BG: Definitely. So the second one, I'm not going to read out this whole question. The third one's more exciting anyway, but it's really similar. But how much of this advice would bleed into this? Because this person is saying that she has sex pretty regularly with her husband, but it's getting boring. And she feels like it's like work or she's just like maintaining a sexual relationship, but she's having an orgasm, but she's not passionate about it anymore. She's not like satisfied in new ways, you know? So would you suggest the same thing? Would you add anything?

NM: would suggest the same thing. would also say reflect on what elements of the sex is no longer working for you. Like what is truly causing it to be boring? Because sometimes we end up just kind of thinking about it as like this one big blob, you know? And there are elements, like I know that because I talk about this with my husband, like there are elements of our sex life that were there in the beginning that I feel like are missing and this is exactly what it is, like X, Y, Z.

And so we're like, okay, so what are the steps that we're gonna take to try to revive that, right? So get really specific or else this generic feedback of like, it's boring, it's just not gonna be constructive for anybody involved.

BG: And it's like kind of a put down too. It's like, I'm boring you in bed. Like, gee, OK, like then don't fuck me. I guess like people can take that really badly too. So I think if it's like what you're saying, like be really specific and also maybe using those I statements, it's like I'm not getting what I need. And I miss these things.

NM: Yeah, a better way to give feedback. Women are twice as likely to get more bored in bed in monogamy than men are. So I think, we tend to criticize women for having lower desire, but I think it's also just because the nature of like straight sex ends up benefiting so much of the male experience that women just get bored really easily.

BG: I love the Dan Savage quote that's like, if sex meant getting pounded internally, would you want it all the time? Like that's also part of it too, where it's like, if that's all sex is, you know? So I just love that because I'm like, that's so true. But I think also like just taking penetration off the table for a bit, just like what else can you do? Like, I think like one of my friends, she had to undergo like a procedure in which she could have orgasms and stuff, but just nothing could go inside of her vagina. Like she couldn't use tampons or anything for a while. so her doctor gave her the OK to do like oral sex, use your vibrator, just don't insert anything. And she said that like her sex life changed completely because all of a sudden they had to figure out, OK, wait, we're relying on penetration a lot. And she's like, I like being penetrated. I think it feels really good. But all of a sudden it was like, wow, like that's no longer the main event.

And I'm now the main event, like my whole pleasure. And it was interesting to see that happen. And I think that that's when you take penetration off the table for straight couples, see how that changes things. And it's not a punishment. It's like, just try something new. Cause a lot of the time also what ends up happening is people start like begging for it. You know what I mean? Like it gets to that point where they're like, Ooh, like actually I do enjoy it when it gets to the point where I'm fully aroused, you know?

NM: Yeah, absolutely. And then I think that like the last part is reflect on whether you actually want to have sex with other people. Like, is that something that you want to explore? You know, and then that's a whole other conversation to be had. But, you know, I think sometimes bringing in new people can add an element. definitely. Adds an entire new element.

BG: I’m going to have you back to talk about that! Okay. Okay. But this question, this has been sitting in my inbox for a little while. And I was like, I know Natasha is going to love this one.

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BG: I’m newly single after 20 years of marriage. I'm a man in his late 40s and I'm having fun dating. However, I don't really know how to explain to new sexual partners what I like. I move their hand, they move it back.

I asked them to go slow, it feels like they take it as a challenge and speed up. I also tried dropping hints about wanting to change positions or try something new, but it feels like I'm just not navigating this right. With my exit felt like we just knew what to do from the beginning to please each other. Now I'm totally lost. What can I do to make it more clear?" So he's like dropping hints, but I'm like, have you tried asking?

NM: Yeah, think dropping hints is generally not a good idea. I don't know if he's talking about a specific partner that he's just starting to date or if it's just multiple. Yeah, would say.

BG: Because he dropped that hint because he's like I'm having fun dating and I'm like okay 40 year old men That means I'm seeing multiple people

NM: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really hot when a guy looks at you and says, you know, I want to make sure that this is a fulfilling sexual experience for us. And so I like to communicate a lot. And then like, is it OK if I ask you, you know, what it is that you want and can you guide me? Yeah, I like that. So I think you can like have a conversation about the conversation. Yeah. You know, which is that.

BG: Ooh, can you guide me is hot.

NM:like and then the person will understand like okay I'm with someone who likes to communicate clearly that's hot and now they know what to expect when they're in bed because frankly a lot of women are so poorly served in in bed during casual sex that they can also feel a little like they don't know what to do or what to say you know

BG: it’s like if someone asks you what your favorite movie is and like all of sudden you don't remember any movie you've ever seen it's like if someone asks you like what do you like and all of sudden you're like I don't remember anything I like in sex ever I think it's definitely the wording is really important and don't drop hints but also it's like you if you're doing something and you want to switch positions you can just ask you know what I mean I think it's like giving people permission to just be like how about you get on top or like would you like it if I you know just stuff like

NM: Exactly. And checking in, like, does this feel good? You know, is this turning you on? Is there anything else you want me to do differently? You know, if you want to move into doggie style, for example, you can say like, can we try doggie style? It feels really good for me. You know, and but it has to be quite clear because I think the hand that like him describing the hand reminds me of like when you're like kissing and the guy tries to like push your head down, you know, and you're like, no, like that's what it reminds me of. Like nobody likes to have like their head pushed down. communicate what your hand is going to do.

BG: Yeah, exactly. If she's like giving him a hand job and he's like moving her hand, you can also be like, this this doesn't feel too good, but this is better. I this better. Like you can move her hand and use your words. You know what I mean? Like you can do both. And I think it's it's OK if you want to like move people around. But also just check in. Like you said, people don't always like to be like manhandled. You know, I think that's something that we see a lot where it's like he just throws her on the bed and then, you know, some people are into that, but especially like new sexual partners first time?

NM: You can like again, ask before, you know, by my card deck. Like my card deck was made for long-term couples in mind. And my single friends love it. Cause they're like, we're talking about these things that we generally never talk about early on. And it allows me to understand the person sexually so much better. And it always ends in really hot sex. And now you've talked about the things that you like. And so you know them a little bit better on like, I'd say your third date.

You know? Yeah.

BG: Definitely. also, yeah, it depends also, like how long are you seeing someone before you get in bed with them? Because like I've had like very intimate, passionate one night stands with people I didn't know very well. But like I had that like baseline trust because we've been talking all night and like, you know, and then there's been people where I dated them for like multiple, multiple dates and like we got in bed and it just wasn't working. Yeah. It's like I was like, I was really hoping because we got really great conversation. But

NM: That sexual chemistry…

BG: I think for him too, it's like, he might not want to come across too strong because he's like, like, you know, my ex just like knew what to do or like from the beginning, we just had that chemistry and we, but like, that's not really what probably happened. It's like you guys probably had some fumbles and stuff too. It's just been a long time. So you're kind of looking back and remembering it as like, it just was smooth sailing. And so it's important to be realistic with yourself and like take responsibility also for your own pleasure, but also like if someone's like giving you a bad hand job, like you don't have to just like slightly move, but you're allowed to be like, I don't like that, you know? Taking like what we were saying earlier with like holding yourself accountable. It's hard to do. It's hard. It's important.

NM:Yeah. It's to do. And just remember that it's going to be an exercise. Like you're not going to master this on the first girl that you decide to have this conversation with. Like learning how to vocalize all of this is going to take some time.

BG: I think it's really interesting when I hear people in their 40s and 50s talk about, like so much has changed in dating since when I was younger. And they don't ever go super far into specifics. But I'm always wondering, has everything really changed or like, is just your experience dating as a 45 year old different than a 25 year old? You know what I mean? Like less people in your age group might be single.

NM:There's more optionality. Yeah, you know, and so think that can be really overwhelming for people the online thing like that's true tied to the optionality like you're always seeing hot people on Instagram and on the apps and so it can it can really be Quite overwhelming. I think that's the only thing honestly I would prefer dating now than in the past where you just had less options and kind of got married to like your neighborhood guy because that was your pretty much your only option.

BG: I think it's interesting to talk to people who are older than that, like that were dating pre-AIDS crisis. They have really cool stories about like hooking up in the 70s and like they're like, yeah, like we would just go to a concert and like we'd have sex in my car and I'd get her phone number and then she, you know, she might call me next time she's in town. And I was like, that's so cool. And then fast forward like 20 years later, everything changed so much, you know, and like, it's like what...Gen X is going through is different than what their parents went through. And like, that's different than what Gen Z is going through. It's like, I just love seeing kind of like the pendulum has swung back and forth a lot because of a lot of factors that we can't control. Right. Like you were talking about earlier with like postmenopausal women, they're having like there was a New York Times article that came out yesterday about like Gen X women are having the best sex. And I was like, I believe it. I think that's great. And you work a lot with that age

NM: Yeah. Group. Yeah, I do. That's my age group. I mean, it's not my personal age group. I'm millennial, but yes.

BG: Yeah, but you like have a camaraderie.

NM: Yeah, because it's generally people who have been in relationships for a really long time and like want that help. Yeah. You know, they're also like older, more mature and ready to ask for the help.

BG: It’s funny though, when I worked at the sex toy store, every woman almost that came in that was like over 50, every, almost every single one would go, I bet I'm the only woman over 50 who comes in here. I was like, you all say the same thing. I get like four a day. Like, it's okay. I always thought that was really funny because I was like, I think it's great that you're all having better sex and you're, you know, exploring these things.

But it's very interesting that the communication with each other isn't necessarily happening. I think that's like the new frontier for post-menopause, you know? To be able to just talk about it with your age group and talk about like, what are you guys going through?

Yeah.

NM: I mean, but listen, I have to say I have some friends that I just cannot talk about sex with at all. that's true. And I've had to kind of really find my people, like good friends that are not necessarily in our industry, that love talking about it. And like when they do, it's just so transformative.

BG: I love that too. I was really surprised actually like a long-term friend of mine. We've never really talked that much about sex like she was visiting New York and she popped into a sex toy store because her friends like wanted to go and they were like like can we all go together because they used to work in one. I was like sure and she was like very like she acted very differently than I had anticipated. She was like no I've never used a vibrator like I don't want it. I was like how are you my friend for 10 years and you haven't used a vibrator you know. But it just goes to show like sometimes we don't know.what's going on with people. I might assume everyone's having great sex because they talk about their sex like...

NM: no, assume most people are not having great se, actually Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the opposite in that sense. But a friend of mine who played the deck with her husband of 10 years was mentioning how one of the questions is about aftercare and she's like, generally my husband just right after sex goes to the bathroom, takes a shower, moves on with his day. And it was the first time that I was able to express that.

I like to stay in bed and cuddle and talk. And she wanted more of that. And they're like now starting to implement that, which I thought was so cute because it's something so little, I think, generally speaking, like the aftercare, something that's so much simpler to talk about than, you know, all the other stuff. But then another question came up about orgasms. And she was like, I mean, I don't know. She considers the sex that they have really good, but she's like, I don't know if I've ever had an orgasm. And then she asked him, how does it feel? And so he described the elation or whatever. And she's like, I guess at some point I feel that elation. And I immediately went to a sex store and got her a vibrator. And I was like, listen, you're going to try this, see how it goes. And she never actually got back to me.

BG: Mm-hmm.

NM: We talk every now and then and I love her, but I also respect that there is like that privacy. But to my friends who tell me, I am not sure. I know that there is, this is pretty divided in amongst educators. Like some believe that if you don't know it's because you've never had it. And others believe that, you know, there's just like a wide range of orgasms. I, I, I think I'm in the former. Like, you know when you have an orgasm, even if it's not the most exciting orgasm, like you will feel that peak, the contractions.

BG: But some people, they have orgasms, but they're just so weak because they have like pelvic floor issues or something. And so then they're like, I'm not sure. And I'm like, well, walk me through it. And then when they're talking about it, I'm like, I think you're just not feeling it. And I think like the way also people are like expecting to be like mind blown every single time I'm like, there's like a range. But I think for people who are like, no, I have, I've never felt that contraction or like, I don't know if I have maybe. then I'm like, I don't think you've had one, you know? I definitely agree with that for sure. I'm excited to play the card deck for my wedding anniversary. think that's what I'm gonna do. I think we're gonna have a little romantic night and we're gonna play. It's coming up in March, so.

NM: That’s gonna have a happy ending. pun intended.

BG: I think so too, based on the cards I've seen. But where can my listeners find you? Where can they see what you're up to and learn from you?

NM: on Instagram, @natassiamiller and wonderlust.co. Okay. It'll be linked in the show notes.

BG: You can go and check out the deck there. You have some classes.

NM: Yes, we have a desire masterclass as well. The number one question that I get asked is about low desire, mismatch desires and relationships. So I created the art of sexual desire. It's a 90 minute masterclass that really teaches you the foundation to building a better sex life. And I think it's just a really great entry point for people who might not be ready to do one on one or who want to come into the one on one better prepared.

BG: That’s great. Well, thanks so much for being on Beyond the Bedroom and going Beyond the Bedroom with me. It was such a joy to have you on, but you can also check out all the links for Natasha's wonderful, exciting educational stuff.

NM: Thank you, Birna.

BG: Thank you. I'll see you next time.